Author Topic: Accord Ice driving setup issues  (Read 1694 times)

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Offline midnightsky

Accord Ice driving setup issues
« on: January 14, 2017, 10:02:38 PM »
Interesting how my 2004 Accord handles like a bag a crap during my previous attempt on the ice at Ghost Lake.  Yet someone else with the same Accord has managed to sneak in just behind David G.  Can anyone comment on possible suspension mods to said Accord? Was it a V6 model? Sedan or Coupe? I just don't understand why mine was such a bag of crap, my previous experience on Ghost Lake in my RSX and my Integra were generally positive and the handling was completely manageable.  My Accord felt like the suspension was fighting me the whole time but I don't know of any issues with my current oem setup.  Infact I have had great success with my Accord on gravel in terms of my ability to control the pitch and angles, just seems like Im missing something for ice driving.  I even had brand new Westlake studded tires up front with 1 season old KW-22's on the rear.  I dropped tire pressure, I made sure my ebrake was not froze up, still it fought me and made the experience very discouraging.  What am I missing? Bad alignment? Its hard to describe the experience other than it felt impossible to control on Ghost Lake.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 11:40:13 PM by midnightsky »
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Accord Ice driving setup issues
« on: January 14, 2017, 10:02:38 PM »

Offline kold911

Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2017, 07:42:05 AM »
Having mismatched tires could very well be the reason for your cars "weird" handling.
Jeff

Offline PrezeS_PL

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Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 09:27:38 AM »
Interesting how my 2004 Accord handles like a bag a crap during my previous attempt on the ice at Ghost Lake.  Yet someone else with the same Accord has managed to sneak in just behind David G.  Can anyone comment on possible suspension mods to said Accord? Was it a V6 model? Sedan or Coupe? I just don't understand why mine was such a bag of crap, my previous experience on Ghost Lake in my RSX and my Integra were generally positive and the handling was completely manageable.  My Accord felt like the suspension was fighting me the whole time but I don't know of any issues with my current oem setup.  Infact I have had great success with my Accord on gravel in terms of my ability to control the pitch and angles, just seems like Im missing something for ice driving.  I even had brand new Westlake studded tires up front with 1 season old KW-22's on the rear.  I dropped tire pressure, I made sure my ebrake was not froze up, still it fought me and made the experience very discouraging.  What am I missing? Bad alignment? Its hard to describe the experience other than it felt impossible to control on Ghost Lake.

Sedan, auto, completely stock, first time on the ice, Peter's comment was  "the guy can drive"
I recommend seat time and if you want coaching, CSCC Winter Driving Academy focuses on how to drive quick around pylons.

Offline midnightsky

Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 09:27:48 AM »
Having mismatched tires could very well be the reason for your cars "weird" handling.

The tread patterns are nearly identical, and Ive also run mismatched tires with this Accord on gravel without any noticeable issues.  It feels more like something in the suspension but I can't put my finger on it.  I cannot imagine that a simple front strut bar is causing this and the rest is all oem and to my knowledge the alignment is within oem spec.

Sedan, auto, completely stock, first time on the ice, Peter's comment was  "the guy can drive"
I recommend seat time and if you want coaching, CSCC Winter Driving Academy focuses on how to drive quick around pylons.

Ask David G, I can drive, or Orrin, both have been in the car with me previously on Ghost Lake.   Orrin actually really loved how easy my RSX was to drive on Ghost Lake and I feel I was able to mostly keep up with his FRS 2 years ago.   Im missing something with this Accord and my suspicions are something within the suspension.  Now that I know that other Accord was stock it leads me to believe my alignment is out or perhaps that front strut bar I added is not ice friendly.  Thank you for the added info, perhaps I will make a 2nd attempt on Ghost Lake by myself after getting the suspension meticulously checked over.

Below is an example of my ability, thats Orrin and Cam.W behind me during an SASC school 3 years ago, I was usually able to stay ahead of them for a couple laps before making a mistake.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 09:48:04 AM by midnightsky »
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Online ChairmanMa

Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 09:58:43 AM »
This is a results thread. Ideally the content in the thread should be corrections to scoring, corrections to classing, or giving kudos to people who posted a good lap time. You may use the other threads on the board or start your own if you want to talk about something else.

Also, I believe that the Accord is stock and rides on not-so-fresh tires.

Online REDBRZ

Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 12:59:08 PM »
I'm willing to be its the mismatched tires more than anything, tread compound, stud location etc.
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Offline PrezeS_PL

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Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2017, 10:14:27 PM »
Ask David G, I can drive, or Orrin, both have been in the car with me previously on Ghost Lake.   Orrin actually really loved how easy my RSX was to drive on Ghost Lake and I feel I was able to mostly keep up with his FRS 2 years ago.   Im missing something with this Accord and my suspicions are something within the suspension.  Now that I know that other Accord was stock it leads me to believe my alignment is out or perhaps that front strut bar I added is not ice friendly.  Thank you for the added info, perhaps I will make a 2nd attempt on Ghost Lake by myself after getting the suspension meticulously checked over.

Below is an example of my ability, thats Orrin and Cam.W behind me during an SASC school 3 years ago, I was usually able to stay ahead of them for a couple laps before making a mistake.

Im not saying David G. is wrong, but I put a bit more weight on Peter's opinion as a previous Ice Dice champion and winner of Big White Winter Rally in 2WD. He rode in that accord as a passenger and was really impressed with Michal driving style and especially his lines.
I think you are overthinking this thing instead of spending more time behind the wheel and learning to use what you have.

BTW I run mismatch tires (2+2) on my bimmer all the time and managed to come with few wins. I also seen Peter done it few times, so I don't think it matters as much as most think it dose. Don't let this to be your excuse and give up.

Sorry David for derailing this thread.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 10:16:31 PM by PrezeS_PL »

Offline lophilip

Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 12:19:32 PM »
Now that I know that other Accord was stock it leads me to believe my alignment is out or perhaps that front strut bar I added is not ice friendly.  Thank you for the added info, perhaps I will make a 2nd attempt on Ghost Lake by myself after getting the suspension meticulously checked over.

More useful information, rather than "I was fighting the suspension", if you want help setting up the car. Was the car understeering or oversteering too much? Did the car feel unstable at high speeds, did the ride seem too harsh? Did you feel the car was not turning in as fast as you like.

A front strut tower bar does not make drastic changes to the handling of the car, but a front sway bar would.

Keep in mind that all cars handle differently - because you learned how to drive on the ice using a RSX it does not necessarily mean the Accord would handle exactly the same way.

I can not drive an automatic Subaru as effectively as a manual Subaru on the ice because all my experience was with manual Subarus.

Online Reijo

Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 12:40:26 PM »
Brand new studded tires up front and season old snows on the back.  Oversteer much?   That is probably your biggest issue ... especially on what is essentially black ice at the lake.  Those conditions tend to "exaggerate" anything you do ... including in/on the car.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 12:42:11 PM by Reijo »
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Offline Jeff Lange

Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 04:36:24 PM »
What tires did you have on the RSX? What type of studs were in the Westlake's and the KW-22's? Do they have a similar stud count? Did you drive them on the street or were they just for ice duty? You only mentioned studs in the fronts, you did have studs in the rear too, right? Were they worn out? Worn studs on the rear and new studs on the front is not a happy combo for balance.

There are all kinds of questions that could be asked, but the Accord in and of itself is definitely not the problem.

What kind of issues were you having with the cars handling?

Jeff
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Offline midnightsky

Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 06:32:25 PM »
Thx for all the input so far guys, can I get a moderator to split this Accord stuff into another thread?  I will post more info then :good:
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Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 11:05:24 PM »
Thx for all the input so far guys, can I get a moderator to split this Accord stuff into another thread?  I will post more info then :good:

Its done already

Offline midnightsky

Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 11:44:42 PM »
Its done already

My bad, its been a crazy few days and didn't even notice, will update tomorrow
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Offline midnightsky

Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2017, 12:15:52 PM »
I think the best description I can use is this, imagine watching a 4 legged animal(dog/deer/fox/ect) trying to walk on ice and having all 4 legs flop out underneath them in full cartoon style, that is how my accord felt like on the ice.  I could not go above 10-20km/h because of all the snow drifts, and the G-circle we had setup I could barely make 10km/h because it would understeer horribly.  If I tried to induce oversteer it wouldn't take because of all the understeer.  I wouldn't use my ebrake at that time because I know there is a crack in the line somewhere and water gets in and freezes my ebrake up which then drags.  My stud count is unknown, type of studs also unknown, the front tires are Westlakes and are less than 1 month old, daily driven, and the rears are 1-2 season old Kuhmo KW22's with studs but basically all are worn flat.  This "should"  create snap oversteer which "should" be manageable with fresh tires/studs up front and some throttle balance. But instead the car has so much understeer on ice that the car felt like a cartoon character falling flat on their face over and over and over again.  The rear wheels seem to have about 1 degree of negative camber each and the fronts I haven't noticed any negative or positive camber, Id have to get it checked to be sure, which isn't in the budget anytime soon.  No suspension mods besides a front strut bar to firm up the front ever so slightly, its a noticeable difference over oem no bar in terms of pavement/gravel driving. The struts seem to be in decent shape and the cars handling on pavement and gravel is very predictable and controllable. There is however a decent amount of steering play on the highway but that could be "normal" for any Accord of this 7th generation. 

Anymore questions? Will do my best to answer them but Im at a loss for how else to describe how the Accord handled on its first ice driving experience.  Bad choice of studs up front which create an impossible to handle situation in terms of ice driving? The car does extremely well on hard packed snow, very predictable and controllable.
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Offline Murray Peterson

Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2017, 05:20:33 PM »
No suspension mods besides a front strut bar to firm up the front ever so slightly, its a noticeable difference over oem no bar in terms of pavement/gravel driving.

I suspect that your larger front bar is responsible for the excessive understeer on ice.  The problem is that you have a very small amount of grip on ice, which means the weight transfer is much smaller, and thus the bar isn't flexing much.  Instead, you are getting what amounts to a completely unsprung front end, which on a FWD car, is a recipe for terminal understeer.

For the next event, try disconnecting that front bar.  Who knows, it may make all the difference.
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Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2017, 05:20:33 PM »

 

anything