Calgary Sports Car Club Forum - Hosted by speedracer.ca

The Disciplines => RallyCross => Topic started by: midnightsky on January 14, 2017, 10:02:38 PM

Title: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: midnightsky on January 14, 2017, 10:02:38 PM
Interesting how my 2004 Accord handles like a bag a crap during my previous attempt on the ice at Ghost Lake.  Yet someone else with the same Accord has managed to sneak in just behind David G.  Can anyone comment on possible suspension mods to said Accord? Was it a V6 model? Sedan or Coupe? I just don't understand why mine was such a bag of crap, my previous experience on Ghost Lake in my RSX and my Integra were generally positive and the handling was completely manageable.  My Accord felt like the suspension was fighting me the whole time but I don't know of any issues with my current oem setup.  Infact I have had great success with my Accord on gravel in terms of my ability to control the pitch and angles, just seems like Im missing something for ice driving.  I even had brand new Westlake studded tires up front with 1 season old KW-22's on the rear.  I dropped tire pressure, I made sure my ebrake was not froze up, still it fought me and made the experience very discouraging.  What am I missing? Bad alignment? Its hard to describe the experience other than it felt impossible to control on Ghost Lake.
Title: Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: kold911 on January 15, 2017, 07:42:05 AM
Having mismatched tires could very well be the reason for your cars "weird" handling.
Title: Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: PrezeS_PL on January 15, 2017, 09:27:38 AM
Interesting how my 2004 Accord handles like a bag a crap during my previous attempt on the ice at Ghost Lake.  Yet someone else with the same Accord has managed to sneak in just behind David G.  Can anyone comment on possible suspension mods to said Accord? Was it a V6 model? Sedan or Coupe? I just don't understand why mine was such a bag of crap, my previous experience on Ghost Lake in my RSX and my Integra were generally positive and the handling was completely manageable.  My Accord felt like the suspension was fighting me the whole time but I don't know of any issues with my current oem setup.  Infact I have had great success with my Accord on gravel in terms of my ability to control the pitch and angles, just seems like Im missing something for ice driving.  I even had brand new Westlake studded tires up front with 1 season old KW-22's on the rear.  I dropped tire pressure, I made sure my ebrake was not froze up, still it fought me and made the experience very discouraging.  What am I missing? Bad alignment? Its hard to describe the experience other than it felt impossible to control on Ghost Lake.

Sedan, auto, completely stock, first time on the ice, Peter's comment was  "the guy can drive"
I recommend seat time and if you want coaching, CSCC Winter Driving Academy focuses on how to drive quick around pylons.
Title: Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: midnightsky on January 15, 2017, 09:27:48 AM
Having mismatched tires could very well be the reason for your cars "weird" handling.

The tread patterns are nearly identical, and Ive also run mismatched tires with this Accord on gravel without any noticeable issues.  It feels more like something in the suspension but I can't put my finger on it.  I cannot imagine that a simple front strut bar is causing this and the rest is all oem and to my knowledge the alignment is within oem spec.

Sedan, auto, completely stock, first time on the ice, Peter's comment was  "the guy can drive"
I recommend seat time and if you want coaching, CSCC Winter Driving Academy focuses on how to drive quick around pylons.

Ask David G, I can drive, or Orrin, both have been in the car with me previously on Ghost Lake.   Orrin actually really loved how easy my RSX was to drive on Ghost Lake and I feel I was able to mostly keep up with his FRS 2 years ago.   Im missing something with this Accord and my suspicions are something within the suspension.  Now that I know that other Accord was stock it leads me to believe my alignment is out or perhaps that front strut bar I added is not ice friendly.  Thank you for the added info, perhaps I will make a 2nd attempt on Ghost Lake by myself after getting the suspension meticulously checked over.

Below is an example of my ability, thats Orrin and Cam.W behind me during an SASC school 3 years ago, I was usually able to stay ahead of them for a couple laps before making a mistake.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x311/midnightskynate/IMG_0323rwm.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/midnightskynate/media/IMG_0323rwm.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: ChairmanMa on January 15, 2017, 09:58:43 AM
This is a results thread. Ideally the content in the thread should be corrections to scoring, corrections to classing, or giving kudos to people who posted a good lap time. You may use the other threads on the board or start your own if you want to talk about something else.

Also, I believe that the Accord is stock and rides on not-so-fresh tires.
Title: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: REDBRZ on January 15, 2017, 12:59:08 PM
I'm willing to be its the mismatched tires more than anything, tread compound, stud location etc.
Title: Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: PrezeS_PL on January 15, 2017, 10:14:27 PM
Ask David G, I can drive, or Orrin, both have been in the car with me previously on Ghost Lake.   Orrin actually really loved how easy my RSX was to drive on Ghost Lake and I feel I was able to mostly keep up with his FRS 2 years ago.   Im missing something with this Accord and my suspicions are something within the suspension.  Now that I know that other Accord was stock it leads me to believe my alignment is out or perhaps that front strut bar I added is not ice friendly.  Thank you for the added info, perhaps I will make a 2nd attempt on Ghost Lake by myself after getting the suspension meticulously checked over.

Below is an example of my ability, thats Orrin and Cam.W behind me during an SASC school 3 years ago, I was usually able to stay ahead of them for a couple laps before making a mistake.

Im not saying David G. is wrong, but I put a bit more weight on Peter's opinion as a previous Ice Dice champion and winner of Big White Winter Rally in 2WD. He rode in that accord as a passenger and was really impressed with Michal driving style and especially his lines.
I think you are overthinking this thing instead of spending more time behind the wheel and learning to use what you have.

BTW I run mismatch tires (2+2) on my bimmer all the time and managed to come with few wins. I also seen Peter done it few times, so I don't think it matters as much as most think it dose. Don't let this to be your excuse and give up.

Sorry David for derailing this thread.

Title: Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: lophilip on January 16, 2017, 12:19:32 PM
Now that I know that other Accord was stock it leads me to believe my alignment is out or perhaps that front strut bar I added is not ice friendly.  Thank you for the added info, perhaps I will make a 2nd attempt on Ghost Lake by myself after getting the suspension meticulously checked over.

More useful information, rather than "I was fighting the suspension", if you want help setting up the car. Was the car understeering or oversteering too much? Did the car feel unstable at high speeds, did the ride seem too harsh? Did you feel the car was not turning in as fast as you like.

A front strut tower bar does not make drastic changes to the handling of the car, but a front sway bar would.

Keep in mind that all cars handle differently - because you learned how to drive on the ice using a RSX it does not necessarily mean the Accord would handle exactly the same way.

I can not drive an automatic Subaru as effectively as a manual Subaru on the ice because all my experience was with manual Subarus.
Title: Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: Reijo on January 16, 2017, 12:40:26 PM
Brand new studded tires up front and season old snows on the back.  Oversteer much?   That is probably your biggest issue ... especially on what is essentially black ice at the lake.  Those conditions tend to "exaggerate" anything you do ... including in/on the car.
Title: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: Jeff Lange on January 16, 2017, 04:36:24 PM
What tires did you have on the RSX? What type of studs were in the Westlake's and the KW-22's? Do they have a similar stud count? Did you drive them on the street or were they just for ice duty? You only mentioned studs in the fronts, you did have studs in the rear too, right? Were they worn out? Worn studs on the rear and new studs on the front is not a happy combo for balance.

There are all kinds of questions that could be asked, but the Accord in and of itself is definitely not the problem.

What kind of issues were you having with the cars handling?

Jeff
Title: Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: midnightsky on January 16, 2017, 06:32:25 PM
Thx for all the input so far guys, can I get a moderator to split this Accord stuff into another thread?  I will post more info then :good:
Title: Re: Re: 2017 Ice Dice Results
Post by: PrezeS_PL on January 16, 2017, 11:05:24 PM
Thx for all the input so far guys, can I get a moderator to split this Accord stuff into another thread?  I will post more info then :good:

Its done already
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: midnightsky on January 16, 2017, 11:44:42 PM
Its done already

My bad, its been a crazy few days and didn't even notice, will update tomorrow
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: midnightsky on January 17, 2017, 12:15:52 PM
I think the best description I can use is this, imagine watching a 4 legged animal(dog/deer/fox/ect) trying to walk on ice and having all 4 legs flop out underneath them in full cartoon style, that is how my accord felt like on the ice.  I could not go above 10-20km/h because of all the snow drifts, and the G-circle we had setup I could barely make 10km/h because it would understeer horribly.  If I tried to induce oversteer it wouldn't take because of all the understeer.  I wouldn't use my ebrake at that time because I know there is a crack in the line somewhere and water gets in and freezes my ebrake up which then drags.  My stud count is unknown, type of studs also unknown, the front tires are Westlakes and are less than 1 month old, daily driven, and the rears are 1-2 season old Kuhmo KW22's with studs but basically all are worn flat.  This "should"  create snap oversteer which "should" be manageable with fresh tires/studs up front and some throttle balance. But instead the car has so much understeer on ice that the car felt like a cartoon character falling flat on their face over and over and over again.  The rear wheels seem to have about 1 degree of negative camber each and the fronts I haven't noticed any negative or positive camber, Id have to get it checked to be sure, which isn't in the budget anytime soon.  No suspension mods besides a front strut bar to firm up the front ever so slightly, its a noticeable difference over oem no bar in terms of pavement/gravel driving. The struts seem to be in decent shape and the cars handling on pavement and gravel is very predictable and controllable. There is however a decent amount of steering play on the highway but that could be "normal" for any Accord of this 7th generation. 

Anymore questions? Will do my best to answer them but Im at a loss for how else to describe how the Accord handled on its first ice driving experience.  Bad choice of studs up front which create an impossible to handle situation in terms of ice driving? The car does extremely well on hard packed snow, very predictable and controllable.
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: Murray Peterson on January 18, 2017, 05:20:33 PM
No suspension mods besides a front strut bar to firm up the front ever so slightly, its a noticeable difference over oem no bar in terms of pavement/gravel driving.

I suspect that your larger front bar is responsible for the excessive understeer on ice.  The problem is that you have a very small amount of grip on ice, which means the weight transfer is much smaller, and thus the bar isn't flexing much.  Instead, you are getting what amounts to a completely unsprung front end, which on a FWD car, is a recipe for terminal understeer.

For the next event, try disconnecting that front bar.  Who knows, it may make all the difference.
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: Spec Volcanic on January 19, 2017, 07:47:07 AM
I suspect that your larger front bar is responsible for the excessive understeer on ice.  The problem is that you have a very small amount of grip on ice, which means the weight transfer is much smaller, and thus the bar isn't flexing much.  Instead, you are getting what amounts to a completely unsprung front end, which on a FWD car, is a recipe for terminal understeer.

For the next event, try disconnecting that front bar.  Who knows, it may make all the difference.

IF it was a frond sway car I would agree, but it is a strut tower bar so I dont that is much of a factor... Unknown Camber / toe... I would be looking there first

It there is a factor front bar sway you could try disconnecting
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: majormojo on January 19, 2017, 08:58:23 AM
Check your front sway bar bushings and endlinks. If any of them are worn/loose or binding up, you'll get some weird handling due to unsmooth weight transfers.
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: midnightsky on January 21, 2017, 03:16:44 PM
Thank you so much guys for your input, Im going to start with the alignment and bushings/endlinks to see what can be found.  If all checks out, then I will remove the mammoth strutbar and see if that makes a difference on the ice, if it doesn't melt before I get to it :crazy:
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: Reijo on January 21, 2017, 05:10:10 PM
Strut bar won't make much difference ... maybe have someone more experienced drive the car to figure out what is wrong if you find nothing broken underneath ... like sway bar links etc.
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: lophilip on January 21, 2017, 06:43:18 PM
Thank you so much guys for your input, Im going to start with the alignment and bushings/endlinks to see what can be found.  If all checks out, then I will remove the mammoth strutbar and see if that makes a difference on the ice, if it doesn't melt before I get to it :crazy:

That and make sure all the tires, including the ones on the back are in good condition.
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: midnightsky on January 21, 2017, 06:57:03 PM
Strut bar won't make much difference ... maybe have someone more experienced drive the car to figure out what is wrong if you find nothing broken underneath ... like sway bar links etc.


Probably not until next season but definitely if I can't figure it out I will be asking for a more experienced driver to hop in and help assess the weak spots.  Hopefully its not me ;)

That and make sure all the tires, including the ones on the back are in good condition.

If I don't find anything bent/broken ect then definitely I will be considering a different choice of tires in conjunction with a more experienced driver.
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: midnightsky on February 15, 2017, 06:46:54 AM
Just a quick update, haven't made it to the shop yet for an inspection, however.......I made an unsettling discovery last weekend.  Decided to try it out without the front strut bar, when I removed the strut bar I found there was a missing nut on the top of my passenger strut tower.  Yet again Im bitten by poor workmanship from a shop I thought I could trust.  That being said, because I don't understand suspension very well yet, that missing top nut on my passenger strut, is it possible that was the cause of my frustration on the ice? It was the inside nut(engine bay side) and they probably missed it because its buried behind my strutbar.  The threads were not stripped and I was lucky enough to find a replacement nut at auto value.  Could there now be possible damage to my top hat? The strut itself? Obviously I need an inspection now more than ever.
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: lophilip on February 15, 2017, 08:26:41 AM
Just a quick update, haven't made it to the shop yet for an inspection, however.......I made an unsettling discovery last weekend.  Decided to try it out without the front strut bar, when I removed the strut bar I found there was a missing nut on the top of my passenger strut tower.  Yet again Im bitten by poor workmanship from a shop I thought I could trust.  That being said, because I don't understand suspension very well yet, that missing top nut on my passenger strut, is it possible that was the cause of my frustration on the ice? It was the inside nut(engine bay side) and they probably missed it because its buried behind my strutbar.  The threads were not stripped and I was lucky enough to find a replacement nut at auto value.  Could there now be possible damage to my top hat? The strut itself? Obviously I need an inspection now more than ever.

I doubt that would cause any damage.
Title: Re: Accord Ice driving setup issues
Post by: FrozenMarzBar3 on February 15, 2017, 02:50:26 PM
IF it was making a difference in the way the car handles, I assume that it would come with some clunking, or you would be hearing the threads on the strut mount chaffing against the strut mount holes.

I'm sure the strut wouldn't move much, if at all, if the two remaining strut mounts were on tight enough...