Toyota

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[samol_hok]

All car companies have their problems.  From a PR perspective, the difference is in how they handle it.

Ford, GM and Chrysler, unfortunately, have a history of attempting to hide safety problems (Ford Explorer tires, exploding Pinto, Corvair suspension, etc etc).  Toyota in this case, for the most part, is coming across as upfront and honest.  As long as they continue to do so, they will restore their image with the public over a relatively short time.

exactly and you have to respect the honesty about it, Just las year Nissan sent out a campaign for
r50 pathfinders for rotting fuel filler tubes, these cars keep in mind are 95-2003 so there is a decent history, and nissan ended up replacing fuel filler tubes at no cost to customers. It comes down to integrity and you have to give it to toyota for halting production for customer safety

[rx7racerca]

I have to say Toyota is looking pretty good in this, in terms of responding (relatively) quickly, although that may be appearance more than reality - a suit filed in November http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/21/toyota-issues-new-voluntary-recall-for-sticking-accelerator-peda/alleged this problem has caused 16 deaths and 243 injuries, so it appears Toyota may have been aware of the issue for months or even years - that is an allegation, however, so it remains to be seen if that's just ambulance-chasing lawyers making unproveable claims or real accidents caused by sticking accelerators.

I am finding it rich that a lot of people, especially fans of the big three American car-makers (I duly note Tracy's distinction!) have enthusiastically piled on Toyota, for a case that I believe in the NHTSA's documents relates the problem to only 3 deaths in California in a single accident. Versus the famous calculation on the part of Ford to not redesign the Pinto's gas tank (since the flaw was knownbefore mass production began) at a cost of ~$.69 per car, since the projected lawsuits costs were expected to be below that.

Compared to Ford, who rightly took a long-lasting public shellacking for the Pinto, GM really did get a huge free ride on the sidesaddle C/K pickup gas tanks. Compared to the Pinto, which was only produced for 3 years before the issue came to public light and a redesign/recall occured, vs. the C/K continuing unchanged long after reports came to light of the extensiveness of the problem (this document, http://www.autosafety.org/GMCKbackground.pdf, suggests over 1800 died of fires in CKs up to 2000).. This got a lot of press in the mid-to-late 80's, I recall, but somehow GM never really got their richly deserved black eye for that one, despite the number of vehicles, length of time they were produced, and number of deaths and injuries (GM's own internal documents revealed they knew the design was a poor choice from the start, and testing showed the tanks "split like melons" in side impacts).

Of course, at the time GM was wrapping themselves in the flag, "the heartbeat of America/Canada", which apparently worked brilliantly for them generally, not just in avoiding the same sort of public persecution and humiliation as Ford earned with the Pinto, despite making far more trucks over a far longer period, and far longer after being aware of the issue,  with at least 20 times as many deaths.  GM was requested by NHTSA to recall the 10 million affected trucks, which they simply refused to comply with. No recall=no public debacle, apparently.

Point being, all automakers have defects, including safety related ones; Toyota's doesn't really appear to be that serious, and they seem to be responding above and beyond the call (since apparently a lot of the floor mat issues relate to aftermarket mats). So I'm not in a hurry to pile on Toyota - even though I'm not a fan - I think they make efficient, competent, and overwhelmingly soulless cars (there have been exceptions on all those points, of course).

Of course, it remains to be seen if Toyota knew more earlier than has been shown so far, but I'm finding it real tiresome on many of the forums I frequent to see a lot of "domestic" fanbois crow about this one. I'd like to see more facts and less "noise" before rendering judgement.

As someone who through inexcusable lapses in judgment has bought 3 VW's in a row, thinking the fun-to-drive factor and amazing space efficiency would outweigh the dismal electrical system reliability, I do acknowledge that like many of us, my automotive predilections sometimes ignore reason  

Fact is, my experiences with German cars generally has convinced me large number's of Nazis evaded capture and prosecution at the end of WWII. They couldn't all work for the US Air Force and NASA, and they resolved to carry on their cause against their conquerors through guerrilla warfare. So they learned electrical engineering from the Brits, and exported that special brand of misery to the rest of the world through otherwise fun and well-engineered cars and Bosch and Motorola electronics.  I realize this is largely unsubstantiated, but you can't deny it makes a lot of sense, and this is an automotive story that would really put Toyota's woes in perspective - someone call CNN! No one may have directly died from bad electrical systems (although my Passat seat warmers did melt seat material, so a fire was a possibility), I'm sure people have suffered heart attacks, embolisms, strokes, and so on from the aggravation, so there's got to be a case to be made... I know I've been close.

Would you believe this post was made entirely without the assistance of alcohol?

[Shawn]

Be careful if you have a Toyota lawnmower  





Shawn

[Talonman]

I have nothing againt Toyota but for once the domestic is not getting bashed, I get tired of listening to import guys bash domestics all day long.

I have both and both have issues that is for sure, get what you like and works for you and who cares what the brand is I say. When we bought the SRX I looked at all the brands and it worked for us and offered more than the others for less, if you read the net they are the worst cars in the world and break everytime you look at it. Well coming up on 3 years (its an 04) and I have $350 into it.

To each their own

[locotoy]

Is this for real or a stunt (Runaway Prius) to sue Toyota for millions of $ ?

The whole story can be found here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35781956/ns/business-autos/

Something worth quoting:

During the two emergency calls, Sikes ignored many of the dispatcher's questions, saying later that he had to put his phone on the seat to keep his hands on the wheel.
Leighann Parks, a 24-year-old dispatcher, repeatedly told him to throw the car into neutral but got no answers.
Neibert told Sikes after the CHP caught up with him to shift to neutral but the driver shook his head no. Sikes told reporters he didn't go into neutral because he worried the car would flip.

The driver rolled down the window and Neibert told him to apply both brakes. Sikes said he lifted his buttocks from the seat to press the floor brake, an account backed by the officer.

I haven't driven a Prius and I don't know how difficult it is to shift a CVT into neutral or how hard it is to shut off a car with a push button ignition. I do know that the throttle on the Prius is drive-by-wire but the brakes aren't, so... wouldn't the brakes still be able to overcome a WOT?  And I thought the recall was for 2010 Prius and not the previous gen like this guy has?

[Spec Volcanic]

It BS, (it is all BS)
Car and Driver test it and Toyotas and other cars and all had enough Brakes to stop even with the accellerate at full the whole time.

In car and driver's reports

Testing Brakes

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

on drivers are idiots (Something I already knew)

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/toyota_recall_scandal_media_circus_and_stupid_drivers-editorial

[rx7racerca]

Like Gary, I vote hoax or outright stupidity/panic (almost always the cause of "unintended acceleration" in any vehicle - funny how this only happens in cars with automatics, and mostly to seniors) for this latest too. Here's part of a response I posted on another forum (I also posted the links to Car and Driver Gary used).

There is something fundamentally fishy about this and other uncontrolled acceleration stories, Toyota or otherwise - which is that any car made in the last 30 years or more should be able to stop using the brakes even with the throttle wide open - shifting to neutral would help, but even in gear, any car with working disc brakes should fairly easily be able to brake hard enough to overcome the engine's full power - which on a Prius, for example, isn't very high. This has been shown in tests again and again.

I'm afraid I'm wondering if this may be a "balloon boy" story of someone seeking notoriety and or money. For the throttle to stick wide open, and the brakes to fail together is highly improbable.

Recall that the Prius brake recall isn't for non-braking, it's to deal with the transition from regenerative braking, using the electric motors to recapture energy and charge the batteries, to actual mechanical/ hydraulic braking - it's to fix a perception by some drivers the car stops braking at the transition from regen to hydraulic - to make the regen hold on deeper into hydraulic brake application to prevent that feeling that braking has decreased momentarily. This will likely make it harder to brake smoothly - more of a tug of extra braking at as the physical brakes engage while the regen is still active, but eliminate that feeling.

Regardless of defects or maintenance issues, drivers need to be prepared to deal with problems that arise with their car. As long as the steering and the brakes work, a stuck throttle shouldn't be catastrophic or uncontrollable. Even in the unlikely event of the brakes failing in combination with a stuck throttle, shifting to neutral and using the handbrake should be able to slow the vehicle, although handbrake use has to be careful not to lock the rears and spin the car.

Having some idea of how the car works is really part of that preparation, as is thinking through ahead of time how to deal with a situation like a stuck throttle or brake failure. It doesn't excuse the manufacturer if there really is a defect, but drivers still need to have some clue of how their car works, and frankly in North America we tend to treat it as if anyone and everyone should have a license, without any training or preparation for handling the car in an emergency - whether mechanical, or evasive maneuvers to avoid animals or other unexpected obstacles.

[randedge]

also...

Is it me or is Full Throttling a Prius the biggest hypocrisy ever?  





Anyway, there was a family that died because of this. That was after all the first instance that brought this 'issue' - if there is an issue - to the public's eye.  Still, I agree with Greg. As callous as it sounds, a driver is culpable even if the car or something else is at fault if your first reaction to a runaway car is 911.  

I mean, we wouldn't excuse that action if the discussion involved something else, like say unsalted black ice conditions.  

Driver:  Help!  911!?  OMG!  I'm slipping and sliding!  The city forgot to salt the roads! Black ice!!!! OH noeeees!

Dispatcher:  .... so you're sliding as you make this call?

Driver: Yes!  Halp!

[jasonrmorrow]

Hybrids can be FAST guys, don't be fooled.

Here are the specs on the prius...its not too quick but the bigger cars are.

57 kW (76 hp) (AT) 5000 rpm
115 N·m (85 lb·ft) (AT) 4200 rpm
Electric: 500 V
50 kW (67 hp) (AT) 1200 rpm
400 N·m (295 lb·ft) (AT) 0 rpm

So 295 ft/lbs as soon as you touch the pedal. Thats as much or more torque than my modified WRX, but it takes
my WRX 3500rpm to get there.

And the highlander...

The Highlander Hybrid  (also sold as the Kluger in some countries) offers better acceleration performance compared to its non-hybrid version. The hybrid version goes from 0–60 mph in 7.2 seconds, trimming almost a second off the conventional version's time. Net hp is 268 hp (200 kW) compared to the conventional 215 hp (160 kW).

The Lexus LS600H has 440hp, and a CVT, it winds up and just holds the rpm and accelerates like crazy.

I haven't ever tried to shift a prius to neutral, I'll try next time I drive one. I'm not going to get involved
in the debate about issues, just wanted to defend these poor defenseless hybrids, I'd love to bring a lexus hybrid to an
autox !

[midnightsky]

I'd love to bring a lexus hybrid to an
autox !

Hybrid IS-F? hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[rx7racerca]

Randy - I probably do sound callous, but I'm afraid there are a lot of idiots out there quick to blame the car, rather than the driver - because that's what they'd like to do if the same happened to them. I also think there's a lot of perverse pleasure for Americans in particular in kicking Toyota, the Japanese giant that dethroned GM as the worlds biggest carmaker. Sort of like how some/all autocrossers will blame their tune, the sway bars, the shocks, the tires, the alignment, the pavement temps, the ambient temp and pressure - lol, you get the point. I'm guilty of that at least some of the time, although I think I usually know it. Being smart and honest makes it hard to lie to yourself.

Case-in-callous-point: the California cop who drove himself and his family to their deaths last summer, and precipitated this wave of progressively more ridiculous unintended acceleration claims. And yes, my wording places the blame squarely on the driver, because that's where it almost certainly belongs.

Not coincidentally the same nearly-brand new car was the exact same model chosen by Car and Driver for their recent test demonstrating that a number of cars, even a high powered Shelby 500GT, could be braked from 70 and 100mph even with the throttle pinned and the car in gear - in the case of the Toyota, it stopped 14' longer from 70 with the gas pinned than without - which was still shorter than a stock Ford Taurus, a competitor in that class. Although no evidence has yet emerged of Toyota throttles sticking wide-open, just of sticky/slow throttle returns, and floor mats catching the pedal.

The California cop, who presumably as a police officer should have had way more emergency driving training than the average schmuck, somehow didn't manage to use the brakes to slow the car, or shift to neutral, but he or his brother who was in the car with did manage to call 911.  There was time to respond to the emergency - the 911 call proves that.  Which leaves the likely conclusion to be that the driver responded inappropriately - most likely by nailing the throttle, not the brake, and failing to correct that error - classic panic from hitting the wrong pedal, compounded by failing to recognize the error and continuing to mash what the driver thinks is the brake, because that's what he meant to do.

Most of these "unintended acceleration" stories occur in parking lots and driveways, and at relatively low speeds. The driver is off the gas and brake in their automatic car (it's always an automatic - always), coasting, moving slowly, pulling into a stall or up to a store front. They go for the brake, but hit the gas. The car surges unexpectedly, and they mash the "brake" their foot has already found hard, and viola, car slams into pedestrian/storefront/parked car/garage door/wall. Driver swears they nailed the brakes. But when video cameras are present, they invariably show no brake lights lit up - because the driver never hit the brakes.

The Cali cop didn't happen in a parking lot or at low speeds, it was on the freeway - so I'd bet that he was driving the car on cruise - went to hit the brake, and because his foot wasn't on either, hit the gas instead, and things fell apart from there.

[randedge]

I didn't mean you as callous, but the position - which I share - as callous sounding.

[rx7racerca]

No worries Randy, I wasn't taking callous as as an accusation, but as a point of agreement. It might sound callous to namby-pamby types (this coming from a guy so mild-mannered as to make Clark Kent look like a loudmouth), but it's a travesty to misdirect blame to a faceless corporation because it's easier for the family, fellow officers, and so on to think that their relative or friend didn't die thanks to blind panic.

[Spec Volcanic]

No worries Randy, I wasn't taking callous as as an accusation, but as a point of agreement. It might sound callous to namby-pamby types (this coming from a guy so mild-mannered as to make Clark Kent look like a loudmouth), but it's a travesty to misdirect blame to a faceless corporation because it's easier for the family, fellow officers, and so on to think that their relative or friend didn't die thanks to blind panic.

But it is McDonald's fault I'm fat.... Right

[tsi_neal]

But it is McDonald's fault I'm fat.... Right

Their burgers are just so delicious!